How did you join the Loooksery team?

In 2014, a friend of mine shared great news: he’s leaving the company that we were working at the time together for a new and promising startup. I remember telling him it was the most stupid idea ever possible. We all know, and it’s statistically proven that 99% of startups fail. He still reminds me of this every day. 

But I was still curious why he was leaving our stable job for a startup. And he showed me the tech, and at that moment, I knew I wanted to work on this product. It was never about the money or the career or relocation opportunity. It was the most innovative thing that I’ve seen at that time. 

So, I joined Looksery as UI/UX-designer.

What was your responsibility there? 

At that point it was a startup, and each team member was actually a one man band. I did basically everything, that includes Photoshop: design of the technology, design of the app, design of the product itself, of all our promo materials.

That’s the beauty of a startup culture: you are your own recruiter, copywriter, legal, finance, marketing team and hence you learn a lot. The other thing that I liked at the time: the whole AR essence is about design meeting technology in the most organic way. In Augmented Reality design and technology are tightly intertwined and don’t exist separately.

What were the technological and other challenges you faced at Looksery? 

It sounds so weird in 2021, but we had to teach people how to hold their phones to take a selfie. In the app, we did a lot of hints to make people understand how to use it.

We did lots of user testing all over the world: we asked people to take a selfie. They used to hold their phones horizontally and told us the app was not working. So we added a hint saying that you have to raise your hand to make the app work. But users still didn’t get it: they held a phone in one hand and raised another.

Basically, what we’ve been doing — we taught people how to take selfies. Those were baby steps. That was the most challenging one. Now, if I give my phone to my 3-year-old daughter, she knows how to hold it correctly.

You know, my grandparents, my sister, my mother-in-law, my niece don’t even know what the word “AR” stands for or how complicated is the tech behind it, with years of research and development. They just call it the “funny faces” and use it as a fun and creative way to communicate with their loved ones.

And that’s the point. You don’t need to have special skills or knowledge to be a part of this technical revolution. And when I see how people of all generations use AR to have fun and to communicate, it makes me so excited to be a part of this tech revolution.

What changed for the Looksery team after the deal was announced? 

It’s all a blur, but I still remember that a guy who was the creator of Looksery came to me and asked whether I knew about the app Snapchat and whether I’d like to work with it, and winked 🙂

The main change after the announcement was to gradually switch your mindset from a startup to a big company. One day you’re a one-man band, and the other — you have to switch to more focused responsibilities, build processes, create and follow policies, build cross-team relationships, and operate globally.

What didn’t change for us: we still move very fast. And we keep this startup spark. We have to create something that has never been done before. I wake up every day, and my to-do list is: to do something that has never been done before. Nothing changed for me in that regard.

What changed dramatically for my team: now we are learning more about the world. Our product is global, so you have to learn more about other countries and cultures and how they perceive the world.

Was it difficult to relocate and adapt to new life? Did the company help with it? 

For the first time, I visited Los Angeles in 2012. My friends and I were just exploring the US and visited so many places and cities — New York, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Denver. And Los Angeles was the only one I hated from first sight. We made a poor choice with the motel, and the very first night in Los Angeles, we had to call the police because a person was trying to break into our rooms. 

So imagine my emotions when I learned that, in a few months, I would have to move to LA. I was so upset.

But when we visited the LA office for the first time, we got some free time and decided to travel. We traveled to so many places. I traveled back and forth between Ukrainian offices and Los Angeles so often I collected 80,000 miles in one year – it’s a three-and-a-half-time journey around the world. Sometimes I didn’t even have time to unpack my bag.

And I fell in love with California. It appeared that LA has so much to offer than that single experience in a horrible motel. I rediscovered LA. It is so very bright and diverse, and I’m still in love with it.

And when the time came to relocate, it all came very naturally. It was not stressful at all, and Snap helped us tremendously. It was, of course, a lot of paperwork — I was applying for a more complicated visa (I’ve got O-1). Aside from that, Snap arranged everything. And my team members were already here — so I didn’t feel alone.

Did the Ukrainian team receive any bonuses, options after the deal?

We cannot disclose that.

How is the work of your department organized at Snap? 

Firstly we don’t have one single design team or design department at Snap. It is more a product-based cross-collaboration. 

I can tell how the AR Lenses design team operates. But other teams’ experience can vary. Each team at Snap decides what’s best for them, and there is no universal structure for everybody.

So we work and operate in a very dynamic environment, whatever we do, we make sure that our structure is flexible so that it matches our current needs. Currently, we work in a matrix-based cross-functional collaboration mode. We need to be flexible, scalable, and adjustable.

And this is my advice to anyone: do not ever try to build something from business books — it never works. Our team is not just a structure and org chart. It’s a group of the most talented people in the industry with the most diverse backgrounds. So whatever I do, as a director, whatever org chart I build, I want to make sure that these structures support my team’s talents and utilize their top skills in the most effective way possible, keeping them happy and giving them opportunities to express themselves through their creative work.

How do you get new ideas for the lenses? 

It’s dramatically different all the time. Some people prefer data analysis. Once, one of my colleagues stormed into the room and said that he did some analysis and discovered that people don’t like orange. He analyzed over a thousand lenses and decided that if we ever were going to do, for example, cute cat ears lenses, they could not, in any case, be orange. It is needless to say that orange lenses actually turned out well 🙂

A lot of our decisions are, in fact, data-driven. But most of the time, it’s just a spark. We don’t have a recipe for a successful lens. Ideas emerge differently — they can be data-driven or a result of brainstorm. An idea can appear as simple as a team member saying: “Hey, I wanna have a T-rex drinking coffee on my table.”

But it is also a rather complicated process. We design the lenses for users all over the world. Something that is considered beautiful or fun in one culture can be considered offensive in another. For example, the 8th of March in our culture for the last few decades has shifted towards celebrating spring, femininity, and motherhood. Here in the US, it kept its original idea: fighting for women’s rights, gender equality, and reproductive rights. So both Ukrainian and US teams were surprised when we worked on ideas for the 8th of March. This is a cultural difference between the two countries, and we are operating globally.

That’s why my team and I are constantly learning about other countries and cultures.

What is your responsibility at the AR Lenses department? 

Once, I asked my mom what I do at work, and she gave it some thought and said: You are in charge of that AR thing and stuff. And it is a perfect description of my work. I printed her answer and put it on my office wall.

While my team is having fun creating the lenses, I make sure they execute strategies that support high-level company goals. One of such goals is to lead the way in augmented reality. 

How did your team get an idea of a Dog Lens that became popular?

It’s funny you mention the Dog Lens. It’s been over six years, and I’m so excited that it keeps inspiring people. For six years, we’ve built so many complex things, and developed so many technologically advanced products, but somehow, the dog always pops up 🙂

Can you tell what are the basic interests of your audience: which lenses they love and hate?

The cool thing about the lenses is that we try to create as personalized content as possible. If you personally would like to be a princess, you are getting more princess lenses. And there is a dramatic difference around the world in what people like in AR and what they are using it for. People prefer different things based on their geography and culture, and we try to explore that as much as we can. Now we are trying to learn more about local cultures.  

For example, we know that Ukrainians like funny memes in AR. And I really like two special lenses that we made for Ukraine: a Christmas Lens and a Lens for Ivan Kupala, with a luxurious traditional wreath. I am definitely proud that I am Ukrainian and can represent our culture in Snap.

But our team also has a lot of talented people from other countries and cultures, and everyone brings ideas and a piece of their personal experience to our product. We collect ideas for our lenses from the whole world.

What are other products your team is currently working on? 

Many of those things were discussed at Snap Partner Summit 2021. 

I am very excited that we created our first AR spectacles and that we were able to announce this product. It’s a completely new journey for my team — to build the lenses for a completely new platform.

The lenses were popular; some companies tried to copy that. How do you and your company feel about that? 

I do proud that Snapchat has become an industry standard. I’m really happy that we are leading the way to set up those standards and to inspire other industry leaders. 

Could you compare working as a designer and a team leader in Ukraine and the US? What does it feel like to work at Snap?

I don’t think it ever is about geography — it is more about the people you work with. Snap feels like home, and I have the best team in the world, and I’m super proud of them. 

What I really love about Snap is that the creativity is not limited here in any way. And as a team leader, I’m trying to make sure that amazing people I work with have all the tools and processes to express themselves and make their creativity shine.

In her interview to AIN.UA, Natalia talks about how difficult it was to organize the move in the height of the quarantine, as well as about what you need to be ready for if you want to move to the Netherlands.

Please tell us, when did you first think about relocation, and what was the reason?

Actually, I had not been “actively” thinking about relocation until 2020.

I mean, this was all like, “It would be nice to move… maybe.” Although I was aware of GitLab having a program of relocation to the Netherlands, with visa support included, I took no action in that regard.

It is even a little scary to talk about the main reason, because I can well imagine what a wave of negativity this could spark with the readers 🙂

I just wanted to live somewhere where I could feel comfortable outside of my own apartment or house.

See, in Ukraine, IT guys receive (relatively) high salaries and can afford to build their own comfort zone: to live in a gated community, with private healthcare, a private school for children, etc.

But once you take a step outside of this zone, you are pushed around in shops, cut off on roads; and I don’t even want to start talking about government institutions. In my view, in Ukraine we all have heightened anxiety, which often gives rise to aggression.

At some point, I began feeling tired of it and noticing things that I hadn’t paid attention to earlier. Such as polluted air (hello to spring fires and the smoke-filled Kyiv, plus endless traffic jams) or the unpredictability of the government’s actions during the quarantine (Oh, let’s tighten it! No, let’s lift it! No, let’s tighten it again!).

I was wishing for predictability and stability, and at some point I just decided to move.

There were no rose-colored glasses: I understood that there are drawbacks everywhere, it was just that for me Ukraine’s drawbacks became more substantive.

Did the company help you relocate? Was it more difficult because you moved with your whole family?

Yes, the company takes full responsibility for the processing of an entry visa, residence permit, and tax abatement for highly skilled immigrants (here called “ruling”).

The list of documents required for moving is very moderate (birth certificates of all those relocating, plus a marriage certificate, if you are married), but we had to fiddle about with reissuing obsolete documents, getting apostilles, and making translations. Having a family does not complicate the process much – there are just still more translations and apostilles.

I entered the country as a “highly skilled immigrant,” which is kennismigrant, or simply KM, in Dutch. For you to receive a residence permit of the type, your employer must either do some “preliminary work” to prove your value as a professional or be listed as a recognized sponsor with the Dutch government. Mine is the second case, so it was quite simple.

If you search for (and find) a job in the Netherlands, ask if it is possible to move in as a KM in the first place, because this is how you can get a tax abatement.

Did the move get harder because of the coronavirus?

Absolutely! For instance, bureaus of vital statistics worked slower due to the quarantine; apostilles took more time; the embassy of the Netherlands limited its appointments, plus this all was just heating things up. It was unclear whether the border would not be closed at a moment’s notice.

Can you name the pros and cons compared to living in Kyiv? Tell us more about taxes, costs, and the quality of life in general (healthcare, transport, food, culture…).

I should say it at once: if you want to move in pursuit of big money, the Netherlands is not for you. According to local standards, my salary is fairly good, but the purchasing power is much lower than the Ukrainian level. I had been ready for that, so there was no disappointment, but it is better to mention it.

Taxes are high, even with the tax abatement (ruling). The tax is progressive, so the more you receive, the more you give away. For example, if your annual pay is 100,000 euros, you will take home 59,000 without ruling or 76,000 with ruling. For those who want to dig deeper, here is a great calculator.

Transport is irrelevant for me – I work remotely, and all basic local travel, if needed, can be done by bike. All praises of Amsterdam’s bicycle infrastructure have been sung before me, and I am not going to repeat them.

The medical care is insurance-based, the insurance premium is about 120 euros apiece per month, but it is free for children.

It is difficult to talk about culture, as everything is closed – a strict lockdown and curfew are in effect here. Much the same can be said about the standard of living, but the air is definitely cleaner here, the food tastes better (that’s right, just food from a supermarket), and the atmosphere is calmer.

In terms of the prices for supermarket products, meat is significantly more expensive (indicative chicken breasts cost 7 euros per kilo), prices for vegetables/groats/milk are at about the same level as in Ukraine or slightly higher (milk costs 0.85 euros per liter, potatoes, 1 euro per kilo). At the same time, you can get some things, like a delicious ripe mango, for just 1–1.5 euros, which was impossible for me in the nearest supermarkets in Kyiv (even if there were mangoes there, their ripeness was about that of the said potatoes).

Human labor is expensive in the Netherlands, so everything that requires it rises in price rapidly. A cup of cappuccino, for example, will cost you 2.5–3 euros.

Tell us about the IT community in the Netherlands (or is the quarantine blocking all networking opportunities for now?). By the way, what does the quarantine look like in Amsterdam?

I had come across the local IT community even before the relocation when speaking at VueAmsterdam. In general, the environment is rather dynamic here, there are many meetups, many world-renowned conferences: not only Vue but also the likes of ReactAmsterdam or JSNation. By the way, one of the main organizers there is also an immigrant, Denis Radin.

The quarantine is strict now: everything is closed, except for grocery stores, even schools do not operate. There is even a curfew. Notably, 70% of the population approve of and comply with the quarantine measures.

You have been flying frequently to industry events across the globe. Will your relocation have any effect on that (once lockdowns are lifted)?

Absolutely! Previously, half of my long-haul flights were connecting through Schiphol, the Amsterdam airport. Now it will be possible at least to shorten a flight by one leg, which is already superb.

Did you have difficulties with your adjustment, with the change of environment? Don’t you regret your decision now?

The Dutch are generally considered a straightforward and rude nation, but I haven’t noticed that yet. Maybe, it’s because Ukrainians are even more straightforward 🙂

There have been no difficulties so far; maybe, they are still ahead. Even before my move, I had read a lot about the country itself, about other migrants’ experiences, and eventually I had prepared myself for just about everything (occasionally, my experience even surpassed the expectations).

I don’t regret anything, not at all. Quite the opposite, I am very glad I managed to move.

There are dozens of openings requiring relocation for technical and non-technical professionals available in the revised job section at AIN.UA.

Check out the collection of openings ?Relocation on AIN.UA

Anastasia moved to Washington DC in 2011 at the invitation of the World Bank. She and her husband, also Ukrainian, became the first full-time programmers in this institution. Today she owns a fast-growing startup.

In her interview with AIN.UA, Anastasia speaks about how she came to be a programmer, moved to the US on an unusual G4 visa, got a green card, and founded her own company. Also, she told what she hates most about American reality.

Career start

I was born in Kharkiv. I graduated from Kharkiv University, Mechanics and Mathematics Department, majoring in theoretical mathematics. At the University, we studied programming at a very basic level.

I had two career options after finishing the degree: firstly, to become a school teacher or a university professor, and secondly, to go into a science – and that required defending a thesis and working further in that direction. Neither teaching nor going into science tickled my fancy, as I didn’t have a clear idea about how much they would pay me. This was 2006.

In my third year at the university, I realized that I wanted to try my hand at IT. Back then, it was a very small industry in Ukraine, and it didn’t sound as sexy as it does now. But there were several people I knew who somehow managed to find work, and even at the time, it was roughly clear that IT guys earn slightly more than research scientists.

I secured my first job in my fifth year already; it was DB Best Technologies, a Kharkiv-based company. I worked as a Software Development Engineer in Test – it is something between a tester and a developer.

I should mention that my first job was one of the best you could possibly find in Kharkiv at that time. It was not an outsourcing company of the early 2000s, but a product company, the developments of which were successfully sold to Microsoft.

The solutions we worked on became a part of SQL Server later; we did databases, SQL Server Migration Assistant.

I worked for that company for six years. DB Best Technologies still exists, and I have kept many friends and fond memories from there.

I realized that I wanted to become a programmer and moved on to another project, a startup called Pikaba. It is like eBay for services: you submit a request for a service, for example, to clean your car, and people offer their terms of execution. It was interesting to work in a 2007 startup, but, as you may have guessed, the project didn’t become the new Facebook.

Relocation to the USA

In 2011, I began looking for options to relocate to the US. Several guys from my first job had moved to work for Microsoft on SQL projects. My future husband, who is also a programmer, and I had by then understood the process, how much it all cost, and what was there for us to expect. We were preparing for our interview at Microsoft, but then our friends offered us to provide advice to some company from Washington DC, that wasn’t even IT.

The team there was comprised of Russian speakers, and they were looking just for people who spoke the language. Besides, they were even unable to formulate what exactly they needed but were ready to pay for us both traveling to the US and back.

It turned out to be the World Bank. A huge international organization, the one that you have thought of. They wanted to start a big-scale data collection project but didn’t know how. The point is, the World Bank generates an immense amount of economic data across all the countries of the world, analyzes them, conducts research, compiles rankings, makes assessments. In 2011, they realized they needed a global software system for collecting the data across different countries, with a high level of security and control. And they didn’t know where to start, because they are professional economists, not IT pros.

We were in touch with them for several weeks, telling them how we viewed this from an IT perspective. And at some point, they said, stay and work for us. We had initially come for two months, and we had return tickets, so at the end of January, we flew back to Ukraine to settle up our affairs. Meanwhile, the World Bank opened two vacancies specifically for us, and those were the jobs that we took when we moved to Washington DC in March.

That was how me and my future husband became the first two developers hired by the World Bank; until then, they had outsourced all their IT projects.

About the G4 visa and the World Bank

As a rule, programmers relocate to the USA on H1B or L1B visas. Those are working visas, and it takes about 6 months to open them. The World Bank plays by its own rules. They relocate people on a G4 visa which is opened in one day. There are no interviews, and, except for some rare cases, an American embassy cannot withhold it. This type of visa was created for employees of international organizations, such as the IMF, UN, World Bank, NATO, etc. A semidiplomatic visa.

I remember, it took me 30 minutes to get a G4: I just walked into the US embassy in Kyiv, got the visa – and that’s it, I could go. Very convenient.

On top of that, when you are on American ground on a G4 visa, you don’t need to pay taxes.

But there is a downside to that visa as well.

When we were moving to the States, we didn’t know if it would be permanent. There are quite a few stories when people didn’t like it there and returned to Ukraine. The G4 is easy to open and permanent – allowing you to stay in the US for the time you want without having to extend it, as long as you work for the World Bank. But it is never converted into a residence permit.

In four years, we understood that we liked it in the US and wanted to stay. But we were tied to the World Bank. To obtain a green card, someone of us had to quit and get hired in the private sector. Another advantage of a G4 visa is that its holder’s spouse has no job restrictions. I decided that I was to become that spouse.

I worked in the World Bank for 4 years. My husband (we got married after moving to the USA) still works there. This was an incredibly interesting project. Firstly, it was a huge responsibility, and secondly, we had to travel to various exotic countries: I had business trips to Zambia, to the Caribbean… It was necessary for us as developers to learn to understand what state-run data collection is, how it is conducted, what are the challenges, and how it can be automated.

In the summer of 2016, I told my boss I was going to quit. Only then did I started looking for a job. All summer, I was running around having interviews, and as a result, in the fall, I received two offers: from Amazon, for $167,000 a year, and a slightly smaller one from a little startup.

About Amazon’s offer and why I declined

The Amazon interview was quite standard and in line with all the information available in the Internet about interviews at large companies.

1. First, you receive a phone call and solve 3 or 4 algorithmic problems – this way they check how fast you can think.
2. If you solve those problems, you get to the next level: a call from the recruiter. This is rather about “talking the talk.” They actually check if you can adequately express you thoughts in general, how you take decisions, how you respond to difficulties at work.
3. If all is okay with that, next comes an invitation to Amazon’s office for an interview. You spend 6 hours there – speaking to different people, solving problems.
4. And then they decide if they should make an offer or not. I got an offer.

The whole process took me about one and a half months. I submitted my CV on July 4 and received the offer around the middle of August. But they had warned me from the beginning that it would take 3–4 weeks. I don’t know how are people from Ukraine interviewed, because I had already lived in the USA, and this was a local interview for me.

I declined the offer for several reasons.

We had lived, and are still living, in Washington, almost in the city center. I can walk to the World Bank’s office. And Amazon’s office is uptown, a 40-minutes ride away; it is like going from Kyiv to Boryspil. So, one of us would have to commute. And understandably, that would be me, because driving uptown from the center is at least against traffic. But that was not the main reason.

In fact, the whole idea of me leaving the World Bank was about residency. I told Amazon from the start that I had a work permit, but it was tied to my husband’s visa: if, for some reason, he quit the World Bank, I would be off to Ukraine with him in two months. That was why I needed them to file a green card application for me, and Amazon answered somewhat vaguely: they either didn’t do that at all, or had a long waiting list.

To swap the World Bank for another large company, remaining in the same visa situation, but having to commute for 40 minutes one way – this would be like shooting yourself in the foot.

I had another offer as well, from a startup within a 15-minute walk from home. They offered me the position of the lead developer: I would lead a team of three people (there were four of them overall – the company was just starting), and what’s more, they would apply for a green card for me. The project was interesting, and I liked the kind of people they were, so I decided to accept the offer. I would have spent the pay difference on buying a car and driving back and forth anyway.

I wrote a letter to Amazon, thanking them for the opportunity and honestly saying that my main problem was about the visa, so I had to decline their offer. Then they began fussing around and saying, like, “Wait, maybe we can help you,” but I had already signed all the papers with the startup and arranged to start work in September.

The Business Insider interview

There is a website called Help A Reporter. It is a go-to platform for American journalists from major editions, such as The New York Times. The point is, legally, they cannot use people they know as their sources. That is why they look for subjects for their articles on this website. I monitor it from time to time, and so, I accidentally came across a request: they needed people for the article who had declined offers from Google, Amazon, Facebook, Netflix, and similar giants. I responded, and it happened to be Business Insider.

The initial plan was to use stories from 3 to 5 persons. But when we started talking with the journalist, it turned out that we had a perfect match. I am both a woman and an immigrant, and they liked my photograph and my visa story. The bottom line is, there was a separate article about me on BI Prime.

I can tell you straight, I did it exclusively to raise my PR profile because I now have my own startup and I need publicity.

Green card

I worked for that startup for 3 years. Before that, I had always been a .Netter, but there I switched to Node JS React and a bit of Swift. That was a classic American startup: everyone does everything, people communicate with each other closely, the development process is fast, there are many ideas, and they are thrown at the wall to see what sticks.

When there, I improved my English well, because in the World Bank they are all “fresh off the boat,” each speaking their own version of faulty English. Some people were from Holland, some from Ukraine, some from China – and we all learned bad things from each other. And here everybody was American.

Plus the startup environment and also the visa. In Amazon or Google, usually there is a whole line of immigrants who want to get themselves a green card. But in this company I was the only one. I could just drop in on the lawyer and ask, what’s up, how are things with my visa? The process dragged along, though.

When I applied for a green card, Obama was serving his last months. The lawyer asked me then what my citizenship was. “Ukrainian? Oh, then we’ll do it in 9 months.” Eventually, it took two years.

As soon as my application was submitted, Trump became president and set about revamping immigration laws. That is why we had to take every step twice and do twice as much work. But two years is still nothing. It’s hard for people from India because they have to wait for 8 years to get a green card, no matter who the president is.

My husband obtained residency owing to me. An interesting logical loop: I gained access to employment in that startup through him, and he got his green card through me.

Anti-stress CrossFit and my own startup

In part, I was unwilling to join Amazon because working for large companies is highly stressful. The World Bank itself is not easy to work for, because now and again you have some Ethiopian minister of statistics being hysterical because something is not working there… To relieve stress, I began doing CrossFit in 2015. I had my favorite gym that I visited every evening: the friends, and it was all on my doorstep. That was why I didn’t want to leave Washington, so as not to lose it all.

Gradually, I grew into a keen CrossFitter, working out five times a week. There are guys in our DC crowd who compete on a global level. I learned from them and created prototypes bit by bit to achieve better results.

About a year ago, I realized that could be developed into a marketable product. I quit the company, and now I have my own startup. It is WOD Insight, an application for Apple Watch and Galaxy Watch that tracks the number of reps and gives tips for improving your results.

Now we have decent growth: it’s a very specific target audience that lives and breathes CrossFit. You know, those people they joke about in the US, “How do you know someone is a CrossFitter from New York? Don’t worry, they’ll tell you right away.”

Even by startup standards, I have a small company. I have kept everything to a minimum. I hired no one and have done every

thing myself. This is my passion product, something that is interesting to me, and I have the skills to program that. My twin sister, who lives in Kharkiv, helps me. She is also seriously into fitness, and she has her own startup in Kharkiv. My husband has also helped, he is a CrossFitter too.

A startup in the US: pros, cons, and pitfalls

I cannot tell you how difficult it is to set up a company in the States – I just have nothing to compare it to, because I never did that in Ukraine.

In the USA, if you create an app with paid features, you don’t even have to establish a company to charge subscription fees. Here, everyone is an entrepreneur by default, no need to go and do any paperwork. All you should do is file a tax return with the information about what kind of service you did and about paying taxes on that.

It’s different, though, if you want not to provide services as a freelancer, but to hire people and raise investments as a startup. To do this, you need to set up a C corporation. I am just going through the registration process now. This is a fast and straightforward process that can be easily done online. It costs about $800.

My app is currently growing 40% each month. There are a few users from Ukraine, but CrossFit is 90% localized in the States, so my key market is here.

We have a Freemium monetization model: the application is free for everyone, but there are paid accounts with advanced statistics and no ads. We also have programs for gyms: we help them spread their workout programs and enhance communication with clients. For instance, gyms host CrossFit competitions, they need a leaderboard – and we give them nice-looking analytics with intermediate results for each athlete. On top of that, there is an advertisement, of course: sneakers, protein, dumbbells, etc. So, we have three monetization sources.

The income is still not enough to outweigh my salary at the bank, but given the fact that the app is 9 months old and monetization was only enabled two months ago, we are fine.

The lockdown and its impact on WOD Insight

We have a love-hate relationship with the lockdown. In part, it helped distribute my application. Before the quarantine, people went to their local gyms and shared their achievements with their friends, but when they got confined to their homes, there was no one to share with! Everybody immediately rushed to the Apple Store to look for a CrossFit app – and that was how they found WOD Insight. Afterwards, when the lockdown was lifted and people came back to the gym, they shared it with friends, like, look what a nice app I’ve found!

On the other hand, no one works out much during quarantine. If a person lives in an apartment, there is no room for exercise machines. Our second top country for users is the UK. Now they have gone into the second lockdown, and I can already see from the statistics how the workout activity has dropped.

What is more, this has made the fundraising process much more difficult for me. As of now, I already have some traffic that I can show to investors from Silicon Valley. There is some interest on their part. But instead of boarding a plane and flying to San Francisco, we have been carrying on the process in fits and starts via Zoom, and this has slowed our progress significantly.

We need money for content marketing now. I need to scale things up, and that means reaching new audiences. In order to do it, I need to educate them. Professional athletes understand the meaning of the data that the app provides, and what they are for. And someone who does CrossFit just for fun will receive that analytics but will be unable to read it. I need a lot of content to explain everybody how to stay safe when doing CrossFit, because it is a very high-injury sport.

On different approaches to creating startups

We, developers, especially those from Ukraine, like technology very much. We want to utilize it and we don’t think about a concrete user’s problem that this technology will solve. And then we wonder, “But I’ve programmed it! I’ve spent so much time! And users don’t want it!”

Working for American startups has taught me to focus on users’ problems rather than technology problems. I think, many developers setting up their own startups lack the understanding that technology is a tool.

You should use a tool to solve a specific problem, and not think up a problem in order to use the tool. The problem is particularly acute for Ukraine because a lot of developers are from outsourcing, and in outsourcing companies, developers rarely get a clear idea of the task that they help a business accomplish.

On visits to Ukraine and domestic problems in the US

Before the corona, I flew to Ukraine happily twice a year. This was my vacation. But this year I didn’t go because of the lockdown. Will we ever come back to live here? We don’t plan it now, but never say never. I remember myself back in 2008, telling somebody that I would never leave Ukraine… I can’t say what will happen for sure. We like Washington, we have bought an apartment here. But we are closely connected with Ukraine: my whole family is in Kharkiv, and my husband’s people are all there too.

I would say that after the relocation our level of wealth has remained the same as in Ukraine. The one thing I don’t like about the US is healthcare. Very expensive!

We have good insurance that covers a lot of things, and we are really aware of the privilege. But if my husband quits the World Bank, and I carry on with my startup routines, then, for instance, to have an appendectomy we will have to shell out $20,000. About the same amount is to deliver a baby.

I know an architect from Amazon, he has a nice salary, insurance, and – a million-dollar baby. How come? He has recently had a child who was born prematurely and spent a long time in a hospital incubator. Then, the hospital sent him a bill for $1,000,000. Certainly, insurance covered part of the expenses, but if not for it, he goes broke! He has no complaints about the hospital – they have saved his child, and the service was perfect. Just don’t be surprised about Americans flying to Ukraine to fix their teeth.

• It is not yet known whether these employees will stay in Kyiv for a long time or will return to Minsk.
• Also, according to the sources, the company plans to move to Vilnius about 500 employees and their families.
• In total, the Minsk office of Wargaming employs about 2,000 people.
• After the presidential elections in Belarus, protests, persecution of the opposition, and cuts in the Internet service, some Belarus-based tech companies considered the relocation of employees to neighboring countries. For example, some PandaDoc employees have moved to Kyiv.

Previously, we published an article on how Belarusian IT teams can relocate to Ukraine.

The amendment made by the Ministry on September 21, 2020, are the following:

• Expanded the list of professions. The previous list included 10 IT professions, and the updated one has 23. The new ones are managers of quality systems, information security systems, application and system programmers, etc. The complete list of the professions that are now available for this procedure, you can see in the ministerial decree.
• Reduced the work experience requirement. Previously, for many professions, confirmed work experience should have been seven years. In Ukrainian companies, there is a great demand for professionals with experience of 3 years. Therefore, in the current classifier for the professions, the work experience has been reduced to 3 years.
• Established mandatory and additional requirements for the qualification. According to the previous version of the decree of the Ministry of Economy, foreigners who wanted to come under the quota had to have higher vocational education and confirmed work experience. In this wording, work experience is a mandatory requirement, while education is an additional one.
• Specified a list of documents that confirm work experience. Previously, a foreigner was required to provide proof of work experience in the industry but did not have requirements for the execution of such documents. Now they have been established. The following documents can prove work experience:

• employment record book or equivalent document;
• reference letters;
• services supply agreements and certificates of services rendered (relevant for self-employed specialists);
• other documents confirming the work experience.

BRDO also says that the next step is to reduce the time required to check the documents of foreigners by the State Migration Service. Such term should not exceed ten calendar weeks, and now this process may take up to a year.

AIN.UA’s editor has talked to the lawyer about how to choose a Western education course and get admitted for study, as well as about the trends of user data protection.

About the career:

You are a lawyer. How did it happen that you got involved with startups?

My career is entirely uncharacteristic for the industry. I struggled with my Maths at school, but I was always good at negotiating. It was there that I understood that this skill can be monetized. Law school was the closest option, so I entered the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. Already in our third year, my friends and I began thinking about our own project. We thought up a startup whose main point was to automate documentation.

Was that your first startup?

Yes. The idea was to write a piece of software that would automate the preparation of basic legal documents. It was 2014 or 2015; we thought it was a brilliant idea. We whipped up a presentation, found programmers, and decided on who would be the co-founders. However, it didn’t work out, and we closed the project.

Before the closure, we brought this project to the Hackathon in Lviv, where I met some guys who needed a lawyer specializing in personal data protection. This was how I became part of Medics team, which works on services for booking medical appointments and signing medical declarations. I have five generations of doctors in my family, so the healthcare industry was very close to me. And so, I became a lawyer in a medical startup. By that time, I had already had some experience of working with international donors, grants, organizations, plus I had advised several IT companies, so it looked as if I could be useful to them.

Now Medics is a functioning company, although I am no more operationally involved with them. Today, it is one of the largest medical reform vendors in Ukraine. We had begun working with the Ministry of Healthcare since before the medical reform became something big. And when I tell my American colleagues that in less than sixth months since the beginning of the medical reform we succeeded to cover 70% of the population (by the total number of signed declarations), it is something utterly mind-blowing for them.

About the studies:

You have experience of working at the Parliament of Canada and as the Masters of Laws in the USA. Please tell us more about it.

In Canada, there is a program, which has been functioning for more than 30 years. Its purpose is to send young Ukrainian leaders to the Canadian parliament for work experience. I got there in the fall of 2017. The interesting part was that I worked on the state program for the reimbursement of medical expenses there, as well as on data protection and AI regulation issues. I came back from Canada in December 2017, and this experience had really recalibrated my worldview.

I understood that I had to go abroad and study those things that we cannot study here. For example, the legal regulation of technology.

I began searching for programs preparing lawyers for this sphere, but such courses were quite a few. There are LLM programs focusing on technology, for instance, several suitable options in the US; these were: Cornell Tech (where I would study), NYU, Berkeley, and a program at Santa Clara University. The rest are LLMs with optional tech courses [Editor’s note: LLM is an MBA analog for lawyers].

I also considered programs in the UK and continental Europe, including those at the London School of Economics and King’s College London.

Based on the combination of factors, I liked the programs at Stockholm University, King’s College London, and Cornell Tech best of all. When it came to choosing the concrete program, based on offers, Master of Laws in Law, Technology, and Entrepreneurship at Cornell Tech was great in combining my previous experience, the industry focus, and opportunities to really work with companies.

How did you manage to get to several top-notch programs?

Firstly, I had been investigating the programs for a very long time: their admissions criteria, working destinations, admission history, what is the success rate.

The majority of the programs that I applied to had an admission success rate of 2–3%.

The key point is your personal statement. In effect, it is your address to the university, explaining why, of all applicants, they should choose you, enlisting your achievements, and telling them about your plans. Here, it is important to understand that in the U.S. your marks and previous experience are considered less valuable, compared to such key points as your current results and unique achievements, whereas in the context of British programs, it’s the opposite: academic performance is key.

My good level of English was among the crucial points also. Currently, I often talk to Ukrainian students who wish to get a higher education somewhere. Insufficient level of English and failure to understand the clear goal of the program are problems routinely faced by our students.

Even having a high level of English proficiency, before I mailed off my statement, I ran through my contacts from Canada, from the U.S. and sent it out to them for proofreading. As a result, there was not a single program that I applied to and where I wasn’t accepted and offered a scholarship.

How to write your personal statement, if you want to enroll in an MBA/LLM or another study program abroad?

When you pick programs for yourself, you look at the requirements and often realize that you don’t quite meet them. For example, suppose there is a program that trains investment bankers or stock market professionals. In Ukraine, it is difficult to get an investment banking background in the sense that is traditional for the program. That is why you have to rewrite this message about yourself, so as to underline the relevant data, find the key requirements, and word the document accordingly.

One more point. Rewriting each of those letters took me about a week. I think, there is nothing harder than writing something about yourself and your achievements in a correct and convincing way. I sent those letters to people who had applied to similar programs or worked in my target industries.

I received my very first draft back all red from corrections. I looked at it and thought that the admissions office would react in the same way. I rewrote it, making it shorter and focusing on the essential points, and they enrolled me.

I remember how I called my parents, and my mom told me, “They just accept geniuses there.” And I replied, “Yeah, mom, I’ve got accepted too.”

Then there were negotiations regarding the scholarship. It is a separate kind of art, more art than science.

How studying at Cornell Tech was useful?

I chose a program at Cornell Tech because it best matched what I wanted to do next.

The main problem for me there was the professional culture shock, realizing how everything was done differently, how the program was geared towards startups and creating startups, developing innovations. Technology transactions, licensing, technology, blockchain, bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, relevant taxing, mergers and acquisitions. I mean, startups in Ukraine rarely go beyond 3 or 4 rounds of investment, and we don’t have regulations allowing these operations as such.

Moreover, the training methodology itself was new to me. I remember coming to my class and thinking, “Now, where is the list of questions for the seminar?” I buried myself in further reading, and it turned out that there were articles from Wall Street Journal and Forbes on the list, but no academic sources in the meaning that I was used to within Ukrainian education.

It came as a shock: do people pay such money for their study, just to get articles from the Internet for reading? On the other hand, it was a course on technology transactions; what academic articles can there be?

Spoiler: in more specialized courses I read 100 pages a week, half of which were cases, and half, academic articles.

For instance, we had a course called Lifecycle of a Venture-Backed Startup, taught by the person who had been Facebook’s first corporate lawyer. He told us he was now taking selfies with all startups working with him because he didn’t make it with Zuckerberg back then.

One of Slack’s first investors taught us Corporate Innovations. He recalled how the founder of Slack had been going through tough times and had to sofa-surf somewhere. And so, he came to my lecturer to stay for a while and told him about a tool they had cobbled together to communicate within their team, while they had been working on a whole different product for a design. It turned out, he had been speaking about Slack. It’s funny, but in a week after that class, Slack held an IPO.

Such stories can blow your mind really hard, especially when you realize that you become part of them. As well as the expertise level of the people you work with. The level of openness. And the complete lack of showing off.

About the data protection sphere:

How did you get into TrustArc?

TrustArc creates technologies for managing privacy in global organizations. It has more than 1,500 clients, with some Fortune 500 companies among them; I cannot name all, but there are Credit Karma, Merck, and Intuit, for example.

The company develops technologies helping to manage all data gathered by applications and companies (for instance, what an application would know about you, if you are a Ukrainian citizen, you live in California, and you access the Internet using a Dutch VPN).

All of this is regulated by numerous statutory documents, imposing different obligations on companies. And you must comply with them, in order to work with any large company from the USA or Europe. If you don’t pay attention to data protection, they won’t deal with you.

I am sometimes asked why I chose this career. Because data is not the new gold, not the new oil – it is much more cool and important.

Roughly speaking, TrustArc writes software and tools that allow companies to manage their privacy policies, control how such policies are observed, address risks. For example, one of the latest products is a risk algorithm that, based on various criteria, calculates the possible risk of working with a particular vendor. As for me, I personally manage the regulatory requirements of the company’s 4 main products dealing with everything concerning cookies and advertising.

For companies with a heavy data component, this is actually a huge question.

In Ukraine, I witnessed a practice where deals fell through because major customers in the West were not ready to work with the inadequate Ukrainian jurisdiction. These were seven-figure transactions falling through because of privacy problems.

I received calls at 5 am and was asked to whip up confidentiality and privacy policies so that the company could show the client that everything was fine with those issues.

But privacy is not a policy downloaded from the Internet; it is about how your organization respects the rights of the users it works with, and you cannot fix such problems within a few hours.

Do you work with companies of Google or Facebook caliber?

I cannot disclose concrete names for reasons of confidentiality, but I work with many companies of the caliber.

Why have there been so many scandals lately, similar to that with Cambridge Analytica, related to privacy issues? Do you help companies solve their privacy problems?

To the first part: in America, sectorial privacy regulations have been formed historically; there is no single comprehensive law or act. There is HIPAA for medical data; there is GLBA for financial information; there are regulations in each individual state.

For example, the CCPA (California Consumer Privacy Act) is now radically changing the dynamics of the issue and setting the trend for other states. There are big discussions going on now, about the efficiency and prospects of adopting a federal act, but it is too early to talk about specific forecasts. Why did it happen to be so?

In the U.S., this sphere has not been regulated for a long time at all. Regulation emerged as a consequence of the tech boom. We are devastatingly dependent on technology, we cannot imagine our lives without it, but on the reverse of the coin, there is our privacy.

What did GDPR begin with? With the idea of limiting the monopoly of technology companies in Europe. Huge fines, like the $170 million that Google had to pay for the violations during the collection of children’s data, are the cost of non-compliance with such requirements, on one hand. On the other hand, such stories show people that they have rights to their own data.

Why there are so many data breaches? Because in the U.S., there are significantly more companies working with data than anywhere else. The market intensity is different, so it might seem from the outside that leaks occur more often here than elsewhere.

Another point that is very pressing in the USA now is technological discrimination. Roughly: if a customer refuses to provide data, the company denies him or her access to the service.

For example, the abovementioned CCPA contains an explicit rule requiring companies not to restrict the rights of the customers based on data that they have or do not have.

And such regulations apply to all companies profiting off targeted advertising, don’t they?

It is true. Among other things, I am involved with products for targeted advertising, and I interact with all major self-governing bodies of the market. This industry will find a solution; there is too much money there not to find workarounds.

On the other hand, regulating the industry helps get rid of unwanted fraudulent schemes. Google had big initiatives in this sphere: to verify any advertisement buyer (previously it had worked only for political ads); Facebook created the Off Facebook service allowing customers to track which websites gather user data outside the platform.

Currently, there is the sensational news about Google’s initiative to abandon the use of third-party cookies. And this is a reasonable decision because if ordinary users could see whose cookies they have on their device and how much data are gathered about them, they would be terrified. So, I would safely advise you to check now in your browser settings what exactly has been collected about you.

It is a fact that without those technologies, the Internet wouldn’t be itself, but they will have to evolve. When CEOs of tech giants speak about the future being private, the actual point is that such companies simply have no other choice.

For me, this means, among other things, that I have to work with very diverse topics and issues, which just a limited number of professionals in my field can work with. I have to work in a wide variety of legal terrains. Today I need to sort out the South Korean personal data legislation (deemed to be one of the strictest globally), tomorrow, to comment on the Brazilian LGPD, whose mechanisms are very similar to those of GDPR, and the next day, I need to go into Russian data localization and the relevant adjudication (for global companies, this is often a key point defining if they will or will not deal with the Russian Federation).

How has the coronavirus influenced privacy regulation? In Ukraine, for example, a law has been passed that allows to process personal data without the owner’s consent when it is related to fighting the coronavirus.

The Ukrainian response to data collection during the pandemic came as a pleasant surprise for me, because of its proportionate measures. What is happening today falls within the definition of public health disaster as a critical threat and therefore falls under the exception from the perspective of such regulatory acts as HIPAA and GDPR. As part of its fight with the pandemic, the USA has loosened some HIPAA rules and allowed healthcare facilities to exchange information directly. This radically changes the regulatory terrain for any medical lawyer, but in view of the pandemic, it is justified.

So, from a legal perspective, it is a proportionate measure. Another question is: will those data be used for other purposes when the quarantine is over? Plus, Ukraine has no developed jurisprudence in such matters.

I have a lot more questions to contact tracking applications, such as the recently launched Google and Apple application, which allows you to voluntarily (consentingly) track your contacts to control the spread of the coronavirus. Because, if you match the already available data to geolocation, you will get a set of sensitive data. And private companies cannot be authorized to collect such sets of data, unlike governmental institutions.

If you have followed the Ukrainian news, have you read about the application “Act at Home?” There were certain issues with it.

Yes, I saw the app. I am not familiar with the topic enough to give comments. But there is nothing wrong with having such an application. After all, this is the quarantine, although in the digital sphere. Don’t we oblige persons under house arrest to stay at home and report about it through an electronic bracelet, because they pose a threat to the society? Persons with coronavirus quite similarly pose a threat to society. Not because they are good or bad, but because they carry a disease that is potentially deadly for people around them.

Another issue is that the implementation of this meritable idea might be dubious.

Recently, there was a scandal in Ukraine: Ukrainians’ databases were on sale in Telegram bots. They had everything about people: name, Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, place of registration, passport. Can you comment on this?

This situation is a marker of a complex problem within the country. Unfortunately, without proper regulation and competent, correctly functioning regulators, such situations will happen again.

What would you advise startups set to expand to foreign markets? Should they bother about privacy issues? Because it is easier to download a ready-made privacy policy.

Of course, such logic makes sense. But only until your startup has a seven-figure transaction blocked. Let’s be honest: the probability of being pestered by a regulator on these issues is objectively not too high for you. But the probability of suffering reputational risks, missing potentially large-scale deals, and cutting off the routes for company growth is way more realistic and financially painful.

What would I advise? Do the research and understand what rules apply in the market, especially if it is b2b. In this case, just bear in mind that sooner or later this issue will be raised.

Understandably, if a startup has to choose whether to pay salaries to its developers or pay a lawyer who would prepare a privacy policy, the latter is seldom opted for. Nevertheless, you will have to do it over time.

There is no point in downloading privacy policies from a random website. Privacy is not something you have posted on your website. It is about what you really do with user data in your organization. So, to describe in simple words what, and how, the company does with data, what systems it utilizes for data processing, and how a user can disallow such processing – is a much more reasonable idea than to copy incomprehensible texts written for a totally different service.

Just remember that, whereas for Google or Facebook a hypothetical $5 million is the cost of doing business, for you it can mean the death of your business. Even if you avoid fines, data leaks from your application or inappropriate data handling will be the first things about you to appear in the news during Internet searches.

You mentioned your work on issues related to the California Consumer Privacy Act. What is this act, and what should Ukrainian companies working with the U.S. market expect from it?

It is a hot season for privacy professionals now, because in early June, the regulation of the CCPA was adopted, and since July 1, the regulator has an official right to fine companies for not meeting the requirements.

This is a turning point for the whole industry because the CCPA is the first act in the USA that covers privacy issues on a universal, rather than sectorial, level. As an expert having worked on the commentaries on this act, I think this is the beginning of major changes that companies should get used to.

As for the practical steps, it is worth starting with:

• understanding whether the act affects your business, or the work of your company’s vendors, clients, or contractors;
• reviewing your confidentiality policy for compliance the requirements of the act;
• implementing mechanisms that allow persons whose data you process to refuse such processing.

The act is fully changing several things: it obliges companies that fall under its requirements to accommodate requests of a personal data owner (user), obliges them to have the function (a button on their website) Do Not Sell My Personal Information, and sets a number of restrictions on working with targeted advertising.

In the interview for AIN.UA, Alina spoke about building a career in the USA, as well as about the difficulties in her studies, life, and work.

Tell us how you started your career. Why had you decided to become a designer, and what had you been doing before moving to the U.S.?

Ever since I was a child, I had drawn pictures, but I refused to go to an art school. To draw on someone’s order seemed wrong to me. In my youth, I got keen on psychology, or rather even behaviorism. I was interested in the motivation of human behavior, what factors influence our choices, possible subconscious manipulations. I had always liked watching commercials as one of the manipulation channels.

I had always known that I would work in creative industries, but there had been no clear plan. I entered the Department of International Relations at the Kyiv Institute of International Relations (IIR) and started studying media, PR, and advertising. Then I decided that I want to work in advertising.

In my 4th year I got a work placement at the digital agency Escape.

I dared to write in a letter to the managing director that I had no work experience, I didn’t know which exact position I could take, but that if he hired me, he wouldn’t regret it.

And I was hired as an intern in the creative department. I did everything from copywriting to drawing storyboards. I learned a lot; I started taking courses in design and sketching.

How did you get to study in the USA?

I received my master’s degree, I owned an apartment, and there was a good start for an advertising career. And I started getting lazy. When everything goes too well, there is no incentive to improve, and you get bored.

My parents had always wanted me to get a second degree. They are Soviet people, and a sheepskin means much to them: it means that in the future, I’ll get a job and make a living out of it. When I graduated from IIR, dad said, “Either you stay and work in Ukraine, and you’re on your own from then on, or you go to get a second degree – we’ll pay for your study.”

It had always seemed to me that the U.S. was something beyond my grasp. In my childhood, I have often traveled to Europe, and it was more familiar to me, but the U.S. – it was challenging. When I was still in Kyiv, I found a university in Los Angeles (Cal State LA) and a program which appealed to me, but as I understood nothing in the American admission system, I missed the application deadlines. I would have to lose six months, but it occurred to me that if I didn’t go then, I wouldn’t go at all. I decided to fly and to do a Pre-Master’s to this university so that after finishing the program, I would progress to grad school automatically.

Initially, I had planned to get a master’s in communication studies, to reinforce my first diploma with an international counterpart. But the start of the academic year in my specialism was deferred from the spring semester to the fall, and I needed either to fly to Ukraine and return in six months, or to continue the Pre-Master’s study. I began looking for colleges and universities to transfer and not to lose time. Parents advised me to do design. Meaning, I had to quit communication studies and start doing graphic design and entertainment technology from scratch. I decided to take my chances.

What difficulties did you face, and how much did the study cost?

Being admitted to a Pre-Master’s is easy, it’s difficult to progress to the next stage. To do it, you must take the TOEFL exam, show your language skills, undergo a diploma devaluation (they partly carry over the test marks in the subjects you passed in Ukraine).

You also have to show who is sponsoring your education. You can come to the U.S. having just $1,000 in your pocket, but to get a visa you must prove that you can sustain yourself. You must have at least $27,000 per year on the bank account. The account may belong not to you, but to your sponsor: parents, husband, etc. The sponsor signs a contract confirming that he or she is willing to pay for your education.

I paid $3,500–4,000 for the three-month Pre-Master’s program, and $6,000–7,000 per semester for the university study (the cost depends upon the number of classes you take: I took the maximum workload).

While I was busy applying, it turned out that the immigration officer, by mistake, had put a tourist stamp onto my student’s visa and hadn’t added me to the database. I had 3 weeks to pass the exams, prepare a set of documents and get admitted, and now on top of that I get my documents rejected, as I am officially not within the country. Because of the stupid mistake, I had to run from pillar to post with dozens of letterheads and wait in long lines.

I managed to apply on the last day before the deadline. And that was a stroke of luck! Had it not been for those weird changes in my university’s academic schedule, I wouldn’t know about the paperwork error and could be deported, because the stamped date meant I would have to leave the country in two months.

What did you live on in America? Did you work part-time somewhere? And how did you manage to combine work and study?

In my first year of living in America, my parents covered the expenses. In the U.S., you don’t have the right to work full-time if you’re an international student. You can earn money just off the books, and I would take no such risks.

After a year, when I was already enrolled in graphic design, other students and professors started hooking me up with some freelance projects. This was how I began earning something bit by bit. Still chicken feed, but I understood that I could already work in design – this raised my self-esteem. Bearing in mind that in the spring I opened Illustrator for the first time, as previously I had drawn by hand only, and by the end of the semester, I would have already been making photorealistic cover pictures (meaning when you take a photo and redraw it so that the picture is identical).

American education is completely different from the Ukrainian and even European ones. You choose what classes you want to attend. And I took all the most difficult ones in the first semester: they just caught my fancy; I didn’t know they were hard-core. Illustrator was among them. The course required us to have the basic Illustrator skills, and I had never in my life worked with this program. I had to catch up at a furious pace.

The study in the U.S. is based on practice – you do projects and collect points. The theory should be studied in the spare time – you just get a list of books to read.

In the first year, I studied a lot, really a lot. By contrast, the next one was easy for me, because we would cover the subjects which I had already done independently. This gave me some free time, and I started freelancing. And in a year, I was already working as the art director in a toy company.

What was this company? How did you get hired?

A small European toy brand called Nobi, with the production facilities in Hungary (with a separate brand, Hungary Plastic). But part of the staff is in Ukraine because the owner hails from Ukraine.

When I had summer vacations, my family and I went on a journey to Europe. And a friend of ours, who happened to be working in Nobi’s marketing team, asked me to come and share my opinion, as I had already had some experience in PR, copywriting and design.

I thought I would drop in for a day and then hit the streets again: after all, I’m on vacation. I sat there listening for a while, and I said a couple of words, because I still wasn’t a part of the team. But they asked me to come the next day. Then the next day.

Eventually, I effectively worked there for three months, despite having no offer, no specific position, and receiving no pay. For this help, they presented me with a premium MacBook Pro, so, essentially, I was in the black.

At the end of August, when I was going to leave, the founder called me and said: “I’m going to make you an offer you can’t refuse. I’m firing the creative director and giving his job to you. Put together a team, it may be international, you will manage it remotely. Congratulations!”

The salary was variable, based on the results. Around $1500–2500 a month, depending on the work performed (I handled two companies belonging to one chain simultaneously). I still couldn’t pay for my education, but it was enough to make a living.

I rented a one-bedroom apartment and was living alone. It’s possible in Los Angeles, but not in New York.

Why did you decide to leave?

I had a heavy schedule. Studying in the USA while constantly flying to Ukraine, to Europe got me a nice sleeping disorder. No one would take the time difference into account – people would call me at 2:00 or 3:00 am, and I could have a meeting at 5:00 am.

I got used to such a schedule, and the director was satisfied with my work. But every time I came up with some crazy projects, wanting to do something big, they preferred not to take risks, but to keep moving in the familiar direction. And I got bored.

I no longer enjoyed the work, no longer enjoyed LA, although it had become my home by that time. There I had some friends, some worn paths, but I understood that I had stopped growing and moving forward. I reached my career ceiling in this company – here I wouldn’t advance above the level of the art director. That is why I decided to leave. To take a step back and work as a designer.

How did you search for a new job? And how did you get into Kworq?

I was looking for a position for several months, mainly via LinkedIn, although I also used job aggregators like Indeed. I sent my CV and portfolio around and began receiving calls and letters, so I understood that I was in demand. I had a full suite of expertise: I had worked as a copywriter; I had got a designer’s portfolio and some team-leading experience. I had done animation, instruction manuals, brochures, packaging – whatever comes to mind.

Then I decided to start all over again and to write just to those companies which were of real interest to me. I made a top list of companies having projects in different cities, but, as a rule, they had no vacancies. So, I searched for their directors’ contacts and wrote to them directly.

I hadn’t known about Kworq, I just stumbled across it in Google. In 2019, it was named the best creative and design agency in New York, according to Clutch, the best content marketing agency in the USA and a top-5 production agency, according to Agency Spotter. Its client list included Jaguar Land Rover, Ray-Ban, Verizon, Louboutin, NARS, etc. And its projects had picked up prestigious awards in the advertising industry time after time. So, I got interested and added it to my list. And when I saw its website, I understood that that was just what I needed.

I wrote a letter to the creative director, also the co-founder. He replied they were a small company, about 10 to 11 people, and had no vacancies at the moment. He offered me a freelance project, but I declined: I was interested just in full-time. Meanwhile, I was invited to an interview in San Francisco.

They offered me a good position with a good salary, $70,000 a year. I had asked for $50,000, but the director crossed it out and advised me not to joke around like that anymore. That’s when I realized I was worth more.

Just when I received that offer, the agency was joining another company. I would have to wait until the merger process is finalized, and only then start working. That said, I still had several months left.

Los Angeles is not far from San Francisco, and in fact, the changes wouldn’t be anything to shout about – slightly more bums, a lot more IT guys. It rains more often. Apart from that, it’s the same.

And I wrote to Kworq again. Before that, I read the creative director’s blog and realized that he was quite straightforward and had a sarcastic sense of humor, like me. Less of the American political correctness, “no bullshit” – just to the point. And then I thought that I should not bow and scrape then. I wrote him a straightforward letter saying that money was not important for me at that stage; I was interested in projects, I wanted to create things, I was ready to work 24/7, I could be loaded with anything – “no bullshit.”

I got the answer at once: “Tomorrow, 10:00 am, in the office.” The office is in New York, you know, and I’m in LA. And he says, “Okay, let’s do a video interview, right now.” I remember I was still wearing my pajamas, and I barely had time to spruce myself up somehow. The video interview was just classic: me wearing a formal shirt up and pajama trousers down under the table. But I made it through, and in several days, I flew to meet the management on-site anyway.

I remember being asked for my opinion on stressful environments. Like, we’re not a mainstream American company, we’re tough, we can swear at each other. And I tell them, “Guys, I’m from Ukraine. If Americans swear in stressful situations, it’s nothing compared to what happens when a large Ukrainian family gathers at the table to enjoy a festive meal.” Just later, when I was walking out after the interview, I thought, hey, what have I blurted out – what if they would think I have a dysfunctional family?

In two hours, I received a message saying I’d gotten the job, and I had two weeks for moving. I sold all my LA stuff, packed the bags and set off to New York.

Was their offer smaller or bigger than that in SF?

Smaller. Actually, salaries in the advertising business in New York are lower than in the rest of America. Because there is more competition. There are thousands of candidates per place, no worse than you. The staff turnover is immense. I’ve been working in the company for 8 months, and in the meantime 5 or 6 persons were replaced. We’re now joking about me being a Kworq veteran.

A graphic designer’s salary in New York is about $50–70 thousand on average. Art directors can get $70,000 to $120,000. Also, in IT companies, designers’ salaries can be above the market average, but people there mainly do presentations, which is tedious and dull. This is how a friend of mine works. The pay is good, but she hates her life.

As a matter of fact, in America, it’s considered improper to disclose what salary someone gets. They don’t ask each other such questions here; money talk is taboo. And then if you ask how they got it, that’s just a personal insult. Everyone here talks about inspiration, future prospects.

And in the context of prospects, New York is very cool. This is the advertising business capital. All the head offices of global companies are situated here. If you work in the advertising business in New York, each your year counts for 10. Even now, if I quit my company, I can get a job wherever I want.

What position do you hold now? What do you do in Kworq? What projects do you manage, and what are their budgets?

After six months I was promoted from a graphic designer to a senior lead graphic designer. The company itself has grown a little – when I came here, the staff were 8, and now there are about 20. I manage a department of 10 to 15 people. I lead the company’s main projects and do everything from brand strategy to animation design. My duties vary depending on the project. If it’s videos, then I contribute to developing the idea and the script, editing and designing VFX; if it’s a social campaign, then – everything from the strategy to the final design.

I cannot disclose our company’s revenue, but, for instance, just in the last two weeks, two projects which I managed in parallel made us a profit of about $100,000. Given the fact that we are a small agency, we handle a large number of projects.

One of my latest projects, Bad Reviews, was nominated for Webby 2020, in the Social Campaign category. We are now applying to Cannes Lions, and I think, we’ll be able to get a prize in one of the 15 available categories. Because the project’s results are really very cool for the American market. Our campaign has boosted the client’s revenue fivefold and has become a social network virus.

Tell us about Bad Reviews. What kind of project is it, what are the results, and how much time did it take to show its provocativeness?

It is a social campaign for a French niche perfume brand called Etat libre d’Orange. Etat libre d’Orange is an elite brand famous for its provocative fragrances. They are not for everyone: you either fall in love instantly, or totally hate them.

I realized that a classic ad with a sexy man in the background wouldn’t do. The name “Etat libre” translates as “Free State”, and the logo is reminiscent of the French flag. The first association which sprang to my mind was – the French Revolution and the famous Eugène Delacroix painting “Liberty Leading the People.” After delving into the topic of the French Revolution, I concluded that it is quite close to the brand’s philosophy. Etat libre revolutionizes the perfumery market. Since their fragrances are provocative, why not make their campaign provocative too?

We combined some famous paintings by European artists of 16–18 centuries, mainly French artists of the Revolution period, with negative comments to Etat libre perfumes from the Internet.

The paintings were selected so that it was unclear whether the commentary relates to the painting or the perfume, and whether the commenter speaks jokingly or seriously.

The comments were so absurd and ingenious that no copywriter could have made such stuff up.

The combination of the paintings and the negative comments creates a sense of being at a museum and just overhearing people’s chat. Some understand and see something special in the painting, and some don’t like it.

The result surpassed all of our expectations. In the first 45 days since the launch of the campaign, Etat Libre d’Orange USA increased their total sales by 284%. The website traffic grew by 393%, and the overall number of orders, by 309%. More than 1.1 million views, more than 35,000 likes, 1,000 reposts, and 700 comments.

The most valuable thing for us is that people engaged in a debate with each other – some said, “Is it a joke?” – and some wrote that it was the best ad, and that just because of it they should buy the perfume. The brand got an army of fans who became its ambassadors of a kind.

What is your life like in New York? How did your standard of living change, compared to LA?

I hated New York. I came here previously, and in a couple of days turned into a lump of malice, because the skyscraper walls press down on you, there are crowds of people, everyone rushes… You can’t even stand on a street in Manhattan, you can get knocked off your feet. Not my kind of atmosphere.

Los Angeles and New York are complete opposites. But wasn’t that me who wanted some radical changes, to get out of my comfort zone, to place myself in such circumstances where I would have to “survive”? It may be not the nicest word, but regarding the pace of living, New York is everlasting stress. I adapted quickly, but I don’t think I’ll stay to live here for more than 2 or 3 years: I prefer seeing the horizon instead of concrete buildings.

Living in New York is generally more expensive than in LA, but this doesn’t affect the quality. I can’t say I cruise around to the Bahamas every week: if I earned this salary in LA, I would live much better. In LA, I was living alone, and in New York, I have housemates. I can’t afford to rent a good apartment on my own.

Approximately 30–40% of my salary is taxes. A good figure at the beginning doesn’t get as good in the end. It’s unlike Ukraine – whatever sum they name to you, that much you get. Here we get less.

We have a loft-style duplex. My neighbors are a couple – a director and a screenplay writer. The flats in our house are only let to creative people, and so every other person here is a musician or an author.

Can you compare the advertising industries in the U.S. and Ukraine?

In Ukraine, people are more relaxed, less afraid to lose their position. For Ukrainians, a mistake is a mistake, but here it means that hundreds if not thousands of people are already snapping at your heels.

The approach to the process is different, as well. In the USA, 80% of project work is research. A project’s success is based on storytelling, and design is just a visualization tool. Everything starts with research, then a strategy and a message, and only after that the idea and the design come.

In Ukraine, this model is turned upside down. In the beginning, we come up with a “wow idea,” and then try to write a story and a message to match it and fit all the strategy accordingly.

I’m not saying this is wrong. A great many Ukrainian projects come through, but this approach is less stable. In the USA, success is calculated and projected in the very beginning. This is, likewise, not always good. I think that is why American agencies value European creatives. We are like an adrenaline shot for them.

I combine the American approach with the Ukrainian one. My colleagues say, “Let Alina devise a concept and sketch out a multilayered strategy, and then we’ll narrow it down and adapt it to the realities.” For me, 70% is storytelling, and then 30% is design.

Do you visit Ukraine often? Do you plan to come back or stay to live in the USA?

I love Ukraine very much, and previously I used to fly there twice a year for a month or two at a time. Now the schedule is busier, and you don’t always get the chance to fly and stay for two weeks at least. Everything depends on the prospects and the work.

I’m not tied to a specific place. I can move to any country in Europe if there are interesting projects there. I can easily change locations, and I adapt quickly. It’s easy to move if you know that you have a home and you can always come back there. Lately, I want to do something useful in my country as well. So, I’m open, if my help in social projects is needed in Ukraine.

Also, in 2019 the number of those who see labor migration as an opportunity to get interesting experience has increased – they account for 27% compared to 18% in 2018.

• Respondents are ready to get additional education and learn the local language for this.
• There are fewer people who want to work outside their profession: 39% compared to 65% in 2018.
• And only 1 out of 100 respondents is not ready to make any compromises.

Where people want to go

The most attractive countries for relocation are Canada, the USA, and Germany.

19% of respondents would not mind working in neighboring countries (Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Moldova, Czech Republic) and the UK, and 15% wouldn’t mind working in Spain.

The least attractive are the UAE, Portugal and the CIS countries. Only 6% of respondents would like to work in the first two, and CIS countries are of interest to only 3 out of 100 respondents.

Portrait of a candidate for relocation to Germany

• 76% of them have higher education.
• 70% are males.
• Most often, relocate in Germany is sought by Ukrainians aged 31-40 years, in the second place – 18-30 years old, and the group of candidates aged 41-50 years old is on the third place.
• Almost three-quarters of jobseekers with a higher education who would like to work in Germany are professionals with more than 6 years of experience, and 14% have from 3 to 6 years of experience.
• Only 12% of candidates wishing to relocate to Germany know the German language.

Professional field of candidates

• The most active in looking for employment in Germany in 2019 were IT specialists (30% of CVs)
• Relocation to Germany is also of interest to top managers and marketers (10% of each).

Salary expectations

• More than a third are ready to move to Germany for a salary of up to €1,000.
• 30% were interested in jobs with salaries up to €2,000.
• Only 4% of applicants want a salary of at least €5,000.

AIN.UA’s editor talked to Maria about relocation, duties of a marketer, and impressions from life in Germany.

***

What is your background and how did you get in Berlin?

I was not going to work in marketing. I taught English literature and language at Ternopil Pedagogical University. At the same time, I studied international economy as a distance learning course.

I found myself a job in online marketing by accident. It was the last year of my master’s degree program. I landed a job at MagneticOne software company. In fact, they were looking for anyone with knowledge of the English language and ability to write. They trained us on site. So I learned the basics of SEO and SMM.

Officially, my position was called ‘marketing manager’. It was 2011, no one knew of other positions in Ternopil. I was juggling all tasks at once, I got the knowledge from books, conferences, and webinars, which were also scarce back then.

Then I moved to Lviv and landed a job in outsource, the company focused on the Benelux market.

There I realized that being a marketer in an outsourcing company is pretty boring. In essence, marketer position was there just for show, because real contracts were closed by salespeople.

Outsourcing has leads you have to work for a long time and big contracts. When you find a new customer and bring themin, the main work is performed by sales reps and product managers. Marketing in this area is boring and customers rarely outsource orders.

And it is natural. Customers need those who are fluent in the language and have cool tools at their disposal and only agencies can afford it. So, after working directly with the product, technical support and developers, I found myself out of place. I did a very basic job: I maintained the website, did basic SMM activities, organized events, and conferences. I worked like that for a year and a half until I relocated to Berlin.

Prior to that, a friend of mine moved there to study. I envied him. I thought: “Damn, I had no clue there were such opportunities when I was studying.” I decided that it was the high time to try, so I began looking for a job in Berlin.

At first, I was looking for some internships, because I could not possibly think of getting a job in Europe with my experience in Ukraine. I worked forsmall companies and managed small budgets. I did a bit of everything.

The internship concept is popular in Europe – it is a six-month paid internship. First, I got to EyeEm, which is a stock photo community. They had a position related to the Russian-speaking market. I was approved for the position and then I applied for a visa and my application was denied.

It turns out that in addition to the official rules that can be found on the Internet, there are a lot of hiccups. Due to the fact that I was not a student at the time, I could not apply for internships. Neither the company that hired me, nor I knew about it.

I got a ‘denied’ stamp in my passport and a kick up my rear.

I have already packed everything and was ready to leave Ukraine, but everything went downhill. Then I braced myself, created a spreadsheet and started adding there all suitable vacancies. I sent my CV and cover letter tailored to the requirements of each company.

How many companies did you have in your spreadsheet?

There were about 200 positions, although I did not apply to all of them. Some demanded a good knowledge of German, others were irrelevant. Today I open the spreadsheet when I feel down.

I realize now that back then I was overwhelmed and did something strange, incomprehensible and, as it turned out, cool.

It was 2014. Job positions like online marketing manager or growth hacker were popular in Ukraine, whereas the overseas market had already developed a strong need for specialization. They were looking for PPC/SEM/SEA managers. It was hard: my experience, in essence, partially fell under any profile, but in fact, it did not satisfy any.

To be honest, when you are looking for a job in marketing in Europe – it is a bit more complicated than for programmers, because there are more than enough native speakers (English and German). Berlin is a multicultural city and for each vacancy, as I now know, they get 60 applications a week. I’m probably a little lucky. Also, my knowledge of HTML as well as other courses proved to be useful.

How can a marketer land a job? At first I didn’t know where to start. I just browsed through LinkedIn and looked at the vacancies of companies that are located in Berlin. In addition, I found websites and blogs that post vacancies in Berlin. For example, Berlin Startup Jobs. Now I am working for my second company in Berlin and we publish vacancies there as well. And the position which I filled I also found on Berlin Startup Jobs.

Also, Germany has its own kind of LinkedIn – XING service. But it is in German and if you do not know the language, finding the right vacancy is more difficult. There are descriptions in German and companies are more traditional – with strict requirements for language proficiency.

So, who ultimately took you in?

As a result, I received two offers and decided in favor of Kayak. This is a travel meta-search. The company has been operating for 15 years, initially focused on the American market, but the Berlin office appeared 5-6 years ago to access European market. And my skills and expertise met their expectations.

I was working with paid advertising. As usual for travel companies, you need to provide many destinations for flights, hotels, and so on. Many variables and a very large core of key queries. Advertising campaigns are huge, as are budgets. Therefore, they take a paid search very seriously.

They took me into a small performance marketing team. There were at different times from 5 to 8 people in the team. But besides that a whole cohort of engineers worked on the campaigns – they automated and linked processes, helped generate reports.

I used to consider writing posts on Facebook as marketing, here I was able to see how huge the technical component is and how conveniently everything can be divided into processes.

In essence, I was in charge of several markets. The budgets were so large that recalling them makes me shiver. But outstanding internal tools were developed exactly for that purpose. You could easily maintain a few dozen accounts at a time. We had enough time both to keep them on target and perform other tasks. In Kayak, I learned how to manage large campaigns and structure them. In addition, I learned a great deal about optimization. But the main thing is that during the interview I spoke about the desire to ‘pump up’ technical skills and I got what I wanted.

Before joining Kayak, I had skills in HTML, CSS, and similar technologies. For example, I did not directly work with databases. And here traditional tools like AdWords Editor and Excel files turned out to be useless. It was necessary to work with databases in SQL.

My boss liked the fact that during the interview I was talking about technical skills. They reminded me of it and sent me to the Data analytics team for several months. As a result, besides working on my campaigns, I had a hardcore SQL and basic Python courses.

It was difficult, but awesome. The perception of all processes and the format of working with campaigns have changed.

How long did you work at Kayak?

I stayed there for 2.5 years. I left because I was lured away by a new company – Blinkist. I work there now. But at Kayak, I got a great experience and they had a great office and a lot of corporate perks. It was awesome.

For example, there were yoga classes, a small gym, free lunches, and snacks in the office. A lot of space and a beautiful terrace – this is a rare thing for Berlin, where there aren’t so many large headquarters. Kayak had 150 employees and about 3 floors of working space.

Why did you leave?

After learning all the ropes, an urge for adventure followed. I wanted to do something in my own way, I wanted to influence the strategy. After learning all the basics, a craving for creativity lights up in you.

Since everything was tied to large budgets, a lot was decided from above. Big companies are not very flexible. Accordingly, I was tempted by the offer to work in a smaller, younger company, where processes needed to be set up. I thought that I would apply my new experience to start everything from scratch.

It is all about contrast. Having worked in a very large company, you start to want comfort and greater responsibility. So you move to a smaller company. Then you want to learn from the coolest experts, so you have to go back to a bigger company. Whoever finds the golden mean is a lucky individual. However, usually people hop from one format to another.

What do you do now?

Since September 2017, I have been working at Blinkist. I am a Senior performance marketing manager. That is, I am part of the performance marketing team, and we, in fact, work with all paid channels. For cost-effective budgets on platforms such as Google Ads, Apple Search Ads, Quora Ads, etc. I also work with data.

All in all, we have a bit of a strange approach to the hierarchy – we use the BOS (Blinkist Operating System), which is based on modified principles of holacracy, like in Zappos. This means that everyone is essentially equal and each has its own area of responsibility.

Accordingly, I am fully responsible for my channel. I work on its strategy, I plan budgetsby country, as well as for a year/quarter. Then we bring it together with other employees.

Our hours are flexible. I myself decide when to come to work and when to leave. I can work remotely if I remain productive and accessible to my colleagues. The most important is that you achieve your objectives. I also help the marketing team on the technical side — not everyone, for example, knows SQL or can configure ETL.

I am also engaged in the automation of routine processes. There’s no desire to waste time on such tasks as changing rates or creating new ads. It is better to spend this time on more strategic and creative tasks.

Blinkist is an expensive product for which you have to pay regularly. Is it hard to sell it?

Yes, and no. If it was easy, then most probably one of our founders would be still doing this with his hands behind his back. The fact that there are entire teams for this purpose means that it’s probably not that easy.

Yes, the product is quite expensive, but we are available globally. In addition, in some countries that already have a subscription culture where people are used to it, there is no fear of a higher price and we can explain the value of the product.

There is a large niche of people who want to advance and move up the career ladder. I judge from my own experience, I myself don’t finish reading many books (especially non-fiction). This problem is very common. If buyers are willing to pay for Spotify, Netflix, and a handful of other services, then Blinkist is a pretty useful alternative.

What is your audience breakdown?

Our main market is the U.S. Germany is in the top 5. Our project is in English, but there is also a German version. We are interested in markets with mature audience where subscription model is prevalent.

We have office only in Berlin so far; there is no use in expanding anywhere else. There are about 140 full-time employees and a handful of freelancers. After all, the content is written by outsidebook experts. In general, Blinkist is growing very quickly – two years ago we were about 60 people.

What is your professional growth plan for the future?

All that tech stuff is growing on me, I like data analysis. I understand thata data analyst is also a boring job, you just sit and solve other people’s problems. But it fits well with the strategy and gives a better understanding of how to work with marketing channels further. Data analysis is one of the areas in which you want to learn more and you can learn more.

I like this domain, but I understand that marketing is random for me and I’m not sure that I’m in it for good. But it seems to me that the current set of tools is very cool and will be handy in so many areas. So while I’m interested in projects, I’m trying to learn everything I can learn. If I get bored, we’ll see what’s next.

How much do you need to spend to relocate to Berlin? Do companies contribute financially?

In Germany, many companies pay a Relocation bonus (although this is not a mandatory requirement). They gave me the bonus with the first salary, so you still need the money for the first month and a half of work. I had minimal savings after working in Lviv and, fortunately, I had not that many things to move. It was a small relocation. A backpack, a suitcase, and here I am in Berlin.

Finding an accommodation was much more difficult. Firstly, the search for an apartment here is not your choice, but the choice of someone from 80 people who come to watch the same apartment. You need a heap of papers, some of which require you to live in Berlin or Germany for at least three months before looking for an apartment.

For example, you need a certificate from the current landlord that you pay on time and do not cause damage to housing. This is all due to the fact that Germany has strict legislation that strongly protects tenants. A tenant who does not pay or plays dirty tricks is very difficult to evict.

I naively believed that since I just moved there, these formalities did not apply to me. I had the money, after all. It turned out that it was not possible. As a result, I forged a note from a previous landlord and took a letter from work stating that I was on an indefinite contract with such and such salary. By the time I also received my first salary, I had money in my bank account. Thus, I managed to rent not the best, but an okay apartment, almost in the center of the city.

Then, I shared the apartment and paid about 550 euros per month, inclusive of utilities. Now prices have risen – you can rent housing in that area for 700-1,100 euros per person in a two-room apartment.

Summarising the talk, are stories about three-month search of apartment in Berlin true or fake?

They are true. But if you are an IT specialist and you relocated here, you will have a decent salary. With good incomes and all the paperwork, an apartment can be found in 2-3 weeks of active search. One month tops.

What is your level of German? Does your field of work have strict language requirements?

In marketing positions, it is either required or required as a bonus. Accordingly, it is better to know the language or at least know the basics. I studied German a little at school, then I forgot it, then I studied it at the university – and then I forgot it once again. When I was going to Berlin, I again decided to learn some.

Now my level of German is B2. That means that I can explain myself clearly and understand others. But since I work in English-speaking field and with English-speaking people, there is no better motivation to learn it. In addition, without the German language in Berlin, there are still a lot of vacancies – this is an English-speaking city. There are even places where people will restlessly answer your questions only in English. They annoy the locals, but it is very convenient for visitors.

How much did you earn in Ukraine on the eve of relocation?

Before I relocated, I earned about $1,500 per month. I moved here, as it seemed to me, for an extremely high salary. But after deducting taxes and comparing housing prices and purchasing power, it turned out that this was just a normal salary. At first, it was able to save up approximately the same amount as I did in Ukraine.

But there was a transition from the fact that in Lviv I could afford anything I want while here I get an average salary. At first it is difficult to get used to this and then, you realize how cool it is to be on equal terms with others, if this is enough for sustenance. There is no such thing like in “Silpo” when someone buys salmon, while others simply buy buckwheat. Life is more pleasant here.

How much do you need to feel comfortable in Berlin?

Let’s build on housing prices. We are talking about 700-1,000 euros for a normal-sized apartment (one or two-room). Usually, the following rule applies – housing will be rented to you, if your income exceeds the rent three times. That is, you need to demonstrate that you can easily pay for housing and still be able to provide yourself with everything you need.

You can find yourself a room with almost any income. Prices are different.

Your impressions from livingin Berlin for a long time.What surprised you and what you like?

I like that nobody owes anything to anyone. This makes you feel freer. You can sit in the subway and not be afraid that some grandmother will yell at you, or the driver in a minibus. I got used to it, so I find myself uncomfortable at home.

Berlin is a city where nobody cares what you are and how you express yourself. For me it was a contrast when relocating from a country where everything is done so that the neighbors would envy you or others would appreciate you.

Feeling yourself absolutely free in self-expression is very valuable, as it turns out.

In addition, despite the fact that Berlin is not very attractive in appearance, somewhat dirty attimes, somewhat with dubious reputation – living here is very cozy and comfortable.

There is a lot going on here and there is always an event to everyone’s taste: jazz and techno festivals, cinema and food, parks and lakes everywhere, very different districts in terms of ambience. You can go to the forest by bike, because the forest is in the middle of the city. Or you can go to a nightclub.

How often do you visit Ukraine?

I visit home often, especially since direct flights have been established. I come for 2-3 days about 5-6 times a year. I miss home a lot, so coming back gives me joy.

But my family is not in Lviv, but in the Ternopil region. To get there, I use 4-6 types of transport – depending on luck. The atmosphere in the shuttles, evil conductors, drunks on the trains – all this is somewhat depressing.

It seems to me that when you live in Ukraine, you are always in a self-defense mode – you need to be ready to shield yourself from the negative vibes and stand up for yourself.

In Germany, I relax. Therefore, it is unusual to come back home and be exposed to the local atmosphere.

I never wanted to stay in Berlin or Europe forever. But the level of comfort and communications they offer is amazing, as expected. It seems to me that I am not here yet, but I am no longer there – I am stuck between two worlds. When I come to Ukraine, I feel a little alien.

What most do you miss in Ukraine from Germany?

In addition to such trivial things as comfort, safety and the like, there is just not enough good and interesting projects that I would like to work on.

I am sure that such project will come up. But I somehow lost touch and haven’t looked for a long time, to be honest. In work, you want opportunities to grow, learn and create something really outstanding.

If you decide to leave Berlin, what will be your next stop?

As a matter of fact, I thought that I would crash in Berlin for a couple of months, get a cool line or two on my resume and return to Ukraine. And now I understand how the ease with which people relocate here lights them up. We have, in a company of 140 people, about 30 nationalities. People move from London to Berlin, from Berlin to Paris, from Paris to Barcelona. And I would like to have a chance to live somewhere else too.

Now I understand how interesting and challenging the experience is to adapt to a different environment, learn new things, meet new atmosphere. It nurtures and teaches more than changing 4 jobs in the same city.

Where are you from? Where’s your alma mater and where did you start your career?

I am from the city of Dnipro on the Dnipro river. I graduated from the faculty of history of the local university. After that, from 2007 to 2015 I worked as a journalist, I wrote about video games in ITC and several Russian magazines.

Along the way, I also began doing design. From 2004 to 2010 I worked for an American startup, making websites and logos for investment companies from Florida. There I began to code. Then I went freelance, scribed for magazines and websites like Kanobu. In 2011, I moved to New Zealand.

What was a startup?

Open Tick. A movie is coming soon featuring Jesse Eisenberg, about boys who tried to earn billions, getting data from the exchanges a little faster than everyone else. Open Tick was about that.

I worked remotely. About ten years before I moved to New Zealand, I usually had three jobs: articles in the morning, and designs in the evening. The startup had a Ukrainian office for developers. But the founder was headquartered in the U.S. and was not particularly concerned with me being absent from the workplace.

The founder, Noah Letske, had about twenty businesses. I hopped from project to project. At some point, there were even electric cars, clones of Ariel Atom.

Why did you begin coding, and which language did you use?

I began by making an HTML website for the team, which was very typical for the designer. The threshold of entry into the front-end has always been tiny, be it now or fifteen years ago. Then followed CSS, jQuery, standard set.

When and under what circumstances did you move to New Zealand?

It all started with my wife being called to do a doctorate at the University of Auckland. We moved in 2011 and this immediately raised several questions. Both of my careers were at a standstill, I reached a certain level of remuneration and professionalism and reached the top in the niche.

There was a choice: either mix the pixels (and words) for the salary of the lower middle class, or try something else.

At first, I put my journalistic career aside and went to PR. I worked in the German Daedalic, with their quests. But PR is a strange job: you write letters and sit in Excel. It began to seem to me that I was remotely turning into ‘office plankton’. In response to that, I mastered JavaScript and found a job as a programmer.

After about a year and a half, I gained just about enough knowledge to start making JavaScript apps. I worked for Stas Kulesh digital studio (many people know him as the main New Zealand blogger), where I had a chance to participate in the making of startups: Karmabot and Buddybid, to name a few.

Then I moved from Auckland to Wellington, where I was hired at one of the main New Zealand web companies, Metservice. And now I work for a non-profit that helps New Zealand students look for work.

How tough are the country’s immigration policies?

For a long time, an immigration escalator was in place in New Zealand. People came to get an education, which provided visas and the opportunity to find work, and a diploma gave much eligibility for a residence permit.

Unfortunately, there is only one large (and relatively warm) city in the country – Auckland. Therefore, everyone stayed there and at some point, its infrastructure failed. Auckland turned into an expensive and cramped metropolis.

New Zealanders got pissed off and tightened the immigration rules. Nevertheless, the residence permit is still given to decent specialists: you just need to know the language, have work experience and, preferably, a girlfriend or a boyfriend.

There are no specific issues with the red tape, if you understand how it works. If your documents meet the government’s criteria, everything will be fine.

To understand what is suitable and what is not, you should talk with a specialist, a local immigration attorney.

Are you planning to stay here with your wife and get a residence permit, citizenship?

We got divorced! But yes, we are planning. We received the residence permit three years ago. We also plan to get citizenship. It is not too wealthy, but a good country. Here we have friends, community, plus, it seems, we are quite important to this country being vigorous and savvy specialists.

What made you decide that your career reached a deadlock and you had to change everything?

Probably after looking at house prices.

The average salary in New Zealand is US$23,000 per year. You can earn that kind of money and be part of the middle class.

But for an immigrant the situation is more complicated than that of a resident – there are no parents from whom you can inherit real estate. There is no cash cushion, investments, and so on. The average price of a house in Auckland is now $560,000. If you goof off, you will die in a shelter.

How much has your income grown after your transition to IT and programming? What are the average salaries in this domain?

About fourfold. IT is a great way to build a career, compared with the rest of the country, we are well remunerated, and most importantly, there is room to grow.

An ordinary sales rep sits on his chair for twenty years, whereas a programmer changes companies and grows into senior, recruiters are on the lookout for them, they are given teams to guide. For example, this week I was contacted by a man whose technical partner moved to another island. This CEO was looking for someone to put in charge of his studio.

Salaries, compared with the United States and Australia, are lower, but it is still enough. In a year, depending on the type of contract (the pay in temporary contracts is higher), a developer can earn from US$60,000 to US$80,000.

And what’s the cost of living in New Zealand?

Depends on a number of things. There are almost no apartment buildings, usually, people lease a big house with flatmates. If you want to live separately, and you don’t have a partner, you will have to spend about $12,000 on rent only.

I’d say, the starting salary, which does not allow you yet to save, but you can already do what you want – starts from $30,000 per year

You mentioned buying a property. Are you planning to settle down here?

I do not know yet. I moved to Wellington from Auckland to ride a mountain bike here, this is one of the best cities for it in the world.

The best one is in Canada, so maybe over time, I’ll stop by there too. In addition, there is a remote work ecosystem now, very cool engineers can live in Bali and run a Californian startup.

This is the next goal, after acquiring citizenship. But with time I will, of course, come back. New Zealand is my home, it’s a cozy place.

Is a bike really a reason for relocation?

One of the main ones. In addition, Wellington feels like a European city. It has its own atmosphere. For example, you can hang around the downtown hopping from bar to bar in the evening, and then walk home on foot.

In Auckland, this requires a sober driver. In addition, the South Island, where the country’s main things are happening (climbing, mountaineering, hiking), is closer.

Tell about the country: what are your main observations of the past 8 years?

New Zealand has its own atmosphere. First, Kiwi – friendly, positive guys, with a culture that encourages independence and the ability to rely on your own strengths. Secondly, the flow of migrants created a community of expats here.

For example, our mountain bike trips include a couple from Holland, a German, a British, and a Czech.

It’s almost a dream society, like that of the Strugatskys. No matter where you’re from, it’s important how cool you are.

All this mixed conventionalism and mobility into the local society. On the one hand, everyone knows everyone, couples usually get married forever, business contracts are signed through acquaintances. On the other hand, you can move anywhere and they will accept you there. Interest clubs, mutual friends. In many ways, it happened because New Zealand boasts one of the lowest crime rates. It is a safe society where people trust each other.

The climate, by the way, is not terrible. Everyone imagines New Zealand as a tropical island, but it is rather a country of eternal freshness. During the year, the temperature in Auckland varies from +14 ° C to +24 ° C. There are no storms, and it only rains for fifteen days in August.

The cities are all different, the main are three. Auckland – five smaller cities, merged into each other. Endless suburbs, hills, nonstop traffic jams.

Wellington is the cultural capital, pressed between the hills in a tiny area and therefore the building density is closer to the European. Cozy, beautiful, walkable.

Christchurch – on the South Island. Close to the mountains that everyone saw in the pictures, but eight years ago it was blown away by an earthquake and now there are only people who could not or were too stubborn to leave.

What are the main pros and cons of living in New Zealand?

It is a country with a pleasant level of freedom and an abundance of opportunities. You can study to become an anthropologist and spend ten years in a village, recording Maori tales. You can buy a van, live in it and surf for a year or two. You can start your own company, make a video game, like the authors of Ashen

The main drawback? Probably alienation. A migrant always refuses his homeland in order to feel like a slightly crazed marmot in another country. The future is unclear, there are no friends to ask for help.

How well have you adjusted to the new society?

The first few years were difficult, but then I settled for a year in a big house with a bunch of foreign flatmates and started traveling around the country. Now I understand the language, I have friends in all big cities who can let me stay overnight

I organized several affinity groups, such as a bicycle group. Now it is very easy for me to find a common language with kiwi, a few of my girlfriends were local.

What’s working culture here like: do you need to work hard or can you relax?

This is a very laid-back country. Some visitors, especially from Pacific Asia, are amazed. Kiwis work in a very relaxed manner and unhurriedly. Having said that, each one has a great sense of personal responsibility and everyone knows everyone. In the end, you simply cannot let other people down.

It is pretty unusual. On the one hand, you do not tell anyone what to do and how they should do it because they will do it anyway. On the other hand, any task will take twice as long as it should.

I’d like to say a few words separately about IT. Here it has its own freedom, some companies allow employees to work from home part of the week, they usually spend 7.5 hours a day in the office.

Would you recommend moving to New Zealand? What’s the local demand when we are talking about IT?

New Zealand is good. There is a small and friendly Ukrainian community, and there’s a scarcity of skilled labor. In IT, most projects are in C#, followed by Java and PHP. We need experts in databases, networks, security, and so on. Microsoft and Amazon have their offices here.

What about gaming industry?

There is a local community of indie developers, probably about 100 people. A few have published games on Steam. But most of them are students without hope of serious money.

There are three teams in the business. There was an office of Gameloft, plus the original author DayZ – New Zealand special forces, and also a very small team from the suburb of Wellington made and successfully launched Ashen. So, all in all, there is no shortage of staff, and there is essentially no place to work.

Tell about your content projects: you had a YouTube channel, you created 3droid.com and Gameplay.ua. Why have you decided not to work on them?

 We started Gameplay.com.ua about 12 years ago. It was a kind of a collaborative blogging effort about games that made a certain noise and, it seems, even started a fashion for collaborative geek blogs. 3droid.com was an attempt to repeat the same thing in pop culture. Both were closed because they did not bring money, and the founders focused on other things.

Sergey Galenkin, who invented Gameplay, develops Epic Games store in the States. I have a similar situation. After a couple of years in New Zealand, I had to choose between writing news about pop media and live in a kennel, or – Spanish startups and a sea view every morning.

The choice is obvious, but there is one more thing. It is impossible to do the same thing 10 years in a row and feel good. At some point, writing a blog about “Star Wars” became simply painful. There are so many opinions on the Internet, it is crammed with them like an ocean is flooded with plastic. Adding your own opinion into that pool makes you feel like an asshole

I suspended the YouTube channel for a similar reason: little money and grew a wee bit tired of my voice.

What is your impression of working in gaming journalism? Is this niche still alive and does it have future?

The information distribution business will always have a future. Only it changes faster than gaming journalists manage to run. At first, everyone wrote reviews, then texts with personal opinions, then they made video content, and now they stream and blabber in the background (and podcasts).

New formats quickly pick up new names. The old gaming journalism has disappeared per se, but gaming journalism is omnipresent — every schoolchild can be a gaming journalist. 

Therefore, it is interesting to watch how people who started it in the 2000s grow and change. In the Russian segment, there are dudes who are forty years old. They still generate gaming journalism content every day. They have a name, audience, but their career already looks more like a history of mental illness. Such a dinosaur wakes up and tries to get into Uber.

From my own experience, many go to PR – there are a lot of good people. But the best of them have long been either making games or involved in media projects. Almost half of them are in Wargaming.

Finally, what are your plans for the future?

I have been planning to go to South America for a long time. There are good conditions for extreme sports, that is, mountaineering, riding a mountain bike and surfing.

I’m thinking of buying a van and driving between Argentina and Chile for a few years until the van gets stolen. At the same time, I will try to complete and start a few small online projects (but nothing related to gaming journalism or geek media, fortunately).